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Lazaroth wrote:
ragholio wrote:
your mixes to me sound a bit thin and fuzzy and lacking in sonic fidelity. Don't take that as an attack, i've been engineering and composing for over 10 years as a proffessional so I have a propensity to master "Bright" as you can never be sure as to where your mixes may end up and what 3rd party compression and limiting may be used (tends to be alot in radio).
First of all, I'm not offended and my hope is that you don't get offended by my critisism either. I am not a rookie myself. I get a master in sound engineering in june and I have courses in e.g. musical composition as well as in advanced mixing and recording music for both film and classical music. I also have 6 years of experience of composing similar music, though not professionally (yet, but soon) with all what that involves.
Second, I'm all for learning new things, since I want to get better. Do you have any tips for how to get that sonic fidelity you say I'm lacking?
Third, my understanding (from courses) is that speakers people generally have at home are of bad quality and you can't expect much bass, but frequencies of about 800-1000Hz and upward are mostly represented. Therefore would not a "bright" master seem quite harsh on all those soundsystems, with or without limiting? Or is it rather that you don't have control over the noise level of all things surrounding the speakers and therefore you want a bright mix to "stand out"?
Fourth, could you please elaborate on "thin" and fuzzy. Do you mean bad seperation and too much reverb?
Fifth, I'm in awe for your some of your percussion, especially on the ending on SNOWING, what library do you use?
Sixth, my meaning of competition is more of a motivatior to push boundries, since I'm always trying to get better.
Also, any other tips that experience teaches you rather than school?
ragholio wrote:
No offence taken - but i like sharp farty brass
I listen to alot of Joe Hisaishi and John Adams.
It's hard to write any of this without sounding preachy and i'm sure you know most of this already - so apologies in advance.
Firstly - you must unlearn what you have learned at school. Sure, some of it is useful as a starting point, but every mixing situation is different for every track. No matter how experienced we become, we still make mitakes - thats the only way we learn.
I guess what I mean by thin and fuzzy is that the library you are using sounds outdated (wich is not your fault) and that is most probaly the cause of a lack of sonic fidelity. Also, i feel your mix is too dynamicaly static throughout (theres not enough difference between the soft beginning and the more dramatic ending). Your reverb is fine, although if mixing with library samples like we do, my tip is that it's a good idea not to do any eq'ing or compression on the samples themsevles as that has been done already during the recording process by better engineers than you and I. Also, another tip is to do more extreme panning than 'out of the box' to create more seperation.
As for speakers, you have a point. But it's not much of a problem here as this music is going to played in the background and softly mostly. And it's the mid range frequencies that are going to be perceived as the loudest. Therefore I mix bright so as more detail is perceived at a lower volume (after all - it's all digital right).
CONTEXT: I tend to mix more dynamicly i.e. in SNOWING or BLIZZARD as it was originally known (so theres already the context for me), I wanted the ending to have a more loose and dramatic feel so I added percussion and used the modulation controller lane (wich controls softeness and loudness or expression in Garritan). Velocity does the same thing for percussion. Maybe we should pool our tips 'n' tricks together and sticky them at the top of the post for others
LIBRARIES: It's best to use a higher resolution source and then mix down (same principal as digital photography). This ensures more detail in the final product. 24bit 48K is a good mixing resolution for this type of thing. I use Garritan Personal Orchestra 4 - realeased at the beginning of '09 (In my opinion the best you can buy outside of EWQL Gold) for just about everything including my latest album. It includes a few brass samples from the SAM Project. Jeremy Soule and Inon Zur also use these libraries - alot. I also use Miroslav Philharmonik for oboes but it's outdated and most things sound thin. I use and older library for choiral called Symphony of Voices wich contains the London Choir and Classical Soloist - I'll update it once my budget stretches to the EWQL choiral libraries that include an interface whereby you can enter text that the choir can sing. And then there are custom samples that i have recorded over the years.
COMPRESSION/LIMITING: There not the same thing but they are generally used together in the master chain where orchestral music is concerned. The loudest peaks in an energetic track should not be limited more than -3db and compression should be used sparingly. Contrary to popular belief, Bass frequencies are damaged more than high frequencies when overcompression is used (due to the slower movement of lower frequency omni directional oscillations), this leads to a thin sounding washy track. Always set the attack of the compressor to be a bit slower so as to let the natuaral transients through and not damage them (the transients will be caught by the limiter). And remember that that too much compression kills dynamics. I use Waves L3 for limiting and PSP Vintage Warmer for compression. The limter should be the last device in the chain with the output set to -0.2 db as per audio cd standard.
REVERB: A good convolution reverb with high quality stereo impulses is a must for orchestral music. It recreates true recording spaces and ambiences. If your library included an ambience or reverb setting built in - turn it off - as it eill interfere with the convolution reverb and cause phasing. I used to use Waves IR1, now i use Audioese Altiverb 6.
THE MOST IMPORTANT THING: Mix with your EARS not your EYES. It's still a mistake i make from time to time. And NEVER MIX WITH HEADPHONES, always use MONITORS. And lastly but no leastly, make sure your mixing environment is FLAT; in this case, using computer, make sure eq's or stereo effects such as EAX are NOT active.
I could go on but i'd bore everyone to death. Plus, i'm on holiday at the moment so i should do a few more tracks before i no longer have the time.
Lazaroth wrote:
Thank you for your answers! I must say that much of what you wrote I knew, but it is always good to learn some new things and reaffirm that what I already thought is true. I think I will buy that Garritan library and see for myself if it is as good as you claim.
However:
ragholio wrote:
but i like sharp farty brass
As we say in Sweden; The taste is like your ass, split.
Maybe one day I will get around writing a tutorial based on what you have written as well as things I know myself both from school and by experience. Right now I want to play with the libraries however. I have a lot of other things going on right now so nothing new will come from me until earliest this weekend. Also, I'm a gamer at heart and STALKER just came out!
luciusDXL wrote:
Can you guys give me a general description of the project to put in the subforum description? Something short but informative.
Lazaroth wrote:
Hmm, I dunno... Perhaps something like: "Have you ever walked the streets of Daggerfall wondering what it would sound like if the game had been made today? The goal of this project is to answer that question and eventually remaster all music to the standards of that of a modern game."
luciusDXL wrote:
Lazaroth wrote:
Hmm, I dunno... Perhaps something like: "Have you ever walked the streets of Daggerfall wondering what it would sound like if the game had been made today? The goal of this project is to answer that question and eventually remaster all music to the standards of that of a modern game."
Ok, done.
Lunarpumpkin wrote:
lol
I like that description.
bloodshot wrote:
I really like GSNOW_B. Although the midi will always be my favorite due to my nostalgia, these seem like they would fit a new game perfectly, nice work.
Lazaroth wrote:
Just letting you know that I've done an interpretation of GSTORY. Found as always in the first post. I will probably tweak the instrument-seperation a bit more when my ears are rested.
StoneFrog wrote:
Mind has blown - as always, I praise you for your ability to remain faithful to the original score whilst tweaking the instruments and progressions as you see fit to do away with the predictable "stick to the rhythm" syndrome that many MIDIs suffer from. The introduction you've added is quite nice, and you've definitely prioritized the instruments in a much nicer fashion than the original did. This definitely,
definitely has to be on the DaggerXL menu someday.
)
