The DaggerXL Music Project (DLs in first post)

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The DaggerXL Music Project (DLs in first post)

Postby Lazaroth » Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:51 pm

Welcome to the DaggerXL Music Project thread!

In here you can comment, request or upload your own Daggerfall songs.
This first post is meant to be updated with new content as it is completed.
Feel free to share and comment, all in a friendly manner of course!


In the link below you can find the midis from the original game as well as the current available recreations of them.
The hope is that we also can have a discussion going so we in the end can get creations as good as possible.
An example of where you can upload a file before I can download and host it is here.
If you've created a song, please tell which midi you did so I don't have to search the midis for the match (the original midi-name).
If you have trouble opening ogg files, visit this page and follow the instructions http://www.vorbis.com

Download here
Mirror (kindly provided by jet800)
Last edited by Lazaroth on Mon Aug 05, 2013 10:06 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: The DaggerXL Music Project (DLs in first post)

Postby ragholio » Sat Apr 16, 2011 7:13 pm

Unfortunately I lost all of my session files when one of my hard drives melted last summer. However I'm not adverse to starting over as my Library is now quite powerful. So, time permiting, I may have brandnew material in the future but I'm doing a bit of texturing at the moment and quite busy with work.

Cant wait to hear the "something big" your planning :)
My original music | http://www.reverbnation.com/ramon |
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Re: The DaggerXL Music Project (DLs in first post)

Postby Greendogo » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:01 am

This thread was migrated from the original thread at the old DaggerXL forums.

Page 1

Lazaroth wrote:This Project isn't dead, we're waiting for music-support in the engine so we can finalize the tracks and updates done 'behind the scenes'.

Latest 5 updates:
July 14th - Added dungeontracks by coldgreysand
June 4th - Added lots of songs from coldgreysand
April 14th - Added 29, GEERIE and GRUINS by ragholio and updated GSNOW_B by Lazaroth
April 10th - Updated dag_7, GSUNNY2 and GSNOW_B by Lazaroth
March 6th - Updated dag_7 by Lazaroth

This is the DaggerXL Music Project thread

In here you can comment, request or upload your own Daggerfall songs.
This first post is meant to be updated with new content as it is completed.
Feel free to share and comment, all in a friendly manner of course!

Below you can find the midis from the original game as well as recreations of them.
The hope is that we can have a discussion going so we in the end can get creations as good as possible.
An example of where you can upload a file before I can download and host it is here
Please tell which midi you have recreated so I don't have to search the midis for the match (exact midi-name).
If you have trouble opening ogg files, visit this page and follow the instructions http://www.vorbis.com

Download here
The downloads are located on a personal server and may have downtime due to reboot, powerfailure and such.


Lazaroth wrote:Just letting you know that I've updated dag_7.


ragholio wrote:now working on 18, gsnow_b, square, folk1, folk2, raining, oversnow and gshop.


ragholio wrote:18 (outside Shedungent): http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?tgmyffzimma

Folk2: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jvoo4jzyyfn

Raining: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?z4k1ck2zntn

Shopping: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?fwiyrhhdm5o

Snow: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jzzz2nzzm0t

Just this mornings work. More to come :)

Oh, and i'm going to keep working on the theme to make it all it can be.


RyuRanX wrote:Beautiful! I can't stop listening this remaked songs! :D


Malentor wrote:
RyuRanX wrote:Beautiful! I can't stop listening this remaked songs! :D


I agree.

I really like your take on those as well, ragholio. They are very loyal to the original sound. :)


ragholio wrote:Cheers.

I'm not changing much at all. Just adding the odd instrument/layer of harmony here and there because I want it to sound as I remember being a 15 year old school boy when Daggerfall came out. (mind you, i only had an FM midi sound card back then...it had it's own charm)


ragholio wrote:Cheers.

I'm not changing much at all. Just adding the odd instrument/layer of harmony here and there because I want it to sound as I remember being a 15 year old school boy when Daggerfall came out. (mind you, i only had an FM midi sound card back then...it had it's own charm)


Lazaroth wrote:Hehe, dang. Good quality music you've done. You're gonna put me out of work.. ;)
I seriously gotta pick a few before you do all of them! :)

Oh and btw, it would be great if you all could write the exact midi-name also, so I don't have to search for the match.


ragholio wrote:Working on Snowing now
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Re: The DaggerXL Music Project (DLs in first post)

Postby Greendogo » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:11 am

Page 2

Lazaroth wrote:
ragholio wrote:Working on Snowing now


You too? :) I'm practally finished. Let the competition begin I suppose... :)

EDIT: Finished. Though, noone says we can't have two versions... :)


ragholio wrote:Snowing! : http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?ymwdm0mt0yj

Damn, you beat me. Oh well, thats enough for today, my Orchestra is getting tired. Maybe I'll work on some of the Taverny/Folky tracks tommorrow :)


Lazaroth wrote:Hehe, maybe I'll get around some dungeon music tomorrow or later tonight depending if I'm in the composing mood.
I like some of the things you did in the ending, although I don't agree with everything... ;)


Super Llama wrote:While we're on snow themes, can we do GSNOW__B? That's my all-time favorite, I always thought it was called "Snowing" but apparently "Snowing" is something else :lol:

Any previous posts by me referring to "Snowing" are referring to GSNOW__B. Excellent job on the REAL "Snowing", though.


Lazaroth wrote:
Super Llama wrote:Any previous posts by me referring to "Snowing" are referring to GSNOW__B.


Puh.. ;)

Well, I better get started then!


Tomaha wrote:I'm amazed by your work efficiency! I understand that you do everything within the computer? I took a bit different approach, as I want to record all the instruments by myself, to keep the differences in dynamics, and to add some emotion of my own ;). Anyway my hardware is a 7-10 days from so hopefully, I would finish Shedungent and Dungeon theme before the end of february. As for now I'm creating some cool sound patches for NI Absynth that sound way disturbing even for me ;). I plan on replacing Dungeon's Bass and Cello with a similiar, but way deeper and more eerie synth sound. My progress is kind of slow, but real life consumes a large part of my time. Anyway - I'm still far off from giving up on that project ;).

BTW. Ragholio - what do you mean by "Orchestra"? EWQL Symphonic Orchestra?


Lazaroth wrote:It's all dependable on your stamina how fast you can do a song. In reality it doesn't have to take more than one perhaps a couple of hours if you tweak a lot. I am however not a machine (no offence), I do a song when I feel like it.

Neither me nor ragholio is recording the instruments ourselves. We use the midis as a blueprints and add the instruments from various orchestral libraries (there of comes his 'orchestra'). After that, if one feels like it, one can add some things that you feel the track is lacking or tweaking preexisting things. For example, compare our SNOWING. There's not much difference between our tracks except the chosen libraries and reverb / EQ etc. However ragholio also put some glissandos and cymbals in, as he felt the song needed it. I on the other hand chose to focus on the reverbational side. In my perspective, I feel like my first half is better and his second half is better.


Tomaha wrote:What libraries are you using? I'm generally interested in various synth software as I'm recording constantly with my band and my own project and new musical opportunities are something I always find quite neat ;).


Lazaroth wrote:Depends if we are talking officially or "unofficially"... ;)

If we're talking officially I can recommend Papelmedia. Very cheap for a very nice library! (in my humble opinion)

However, just having a nice library doesn't mean that it will automatically sound great. Takes a lot of practice. A good reverb, compressor and EQ doesn't hurt either.


Lazaroth wrote:Well, GSNOW_B is done (in first post). Took some artistic liberties, I hope you approve.
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Re: The DaggerXL Music Project (DLs in first post)

Postby Greendogo » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:13 am

Page 3

StoneFrog wrote:Man guys, the work you've done thus far is simply mindblowing. I have great affinity for the Snowing tracks, as most of my most vivid memories of both Arena and Daggerfall occur in the snow-covered city streets - it's not uncommon for me to hum one of said tunes when it is actually snowing here in the real world.

I know you guys have already disputed over the names of these tracks, but this is what I know: Snowing as you have it listed in the original post is actually officially titled "Over Snow", I believe. GSNOW_B should of course be the "Snowing" track added with Daggerfall.

Concerning the "true" Snowing track (the one you have titled as GSNOW_B), perhaps you would like to listen to this MP3 version that I actually listen to all the time when modding for Morrowind. I think the brass could be a bit more graceful and less sharp-sounding as is the case in this one. I know, of course, that this YouTube upload is but a soulless MP3 conversion, and the work both of you are doing is of far greater merit. Keep up the good work, just my two cents.

Also, I love the artistic liberties you took with the progression at 1:10 to 1:31. Simply magical. :)


Arctus wrote:I can't even tell you all how much I'm loving this music, it's just amazing! :D


Lazaroth wrote:Hehe, thanks for the feedback. I made some adjustments to the song. I'll probably make some more with fresh ears tomorrow. In regard to the names, I'm not really sure which one is which. I couldn't be bothered with the jukebox thingy so I downloaded the midis. The names did correspond with the names I saw in the jukebox however.


billyknives wrote:Beautiful work Lazaroth


Super Llama wrote:
Lazaroth wrote:Well, GSNOW_B is done (in first post). Took some artistic liberties, I hope you approve.

Simply AMAZING. I certainly approve, you are doing it right. Very, very nice work, and the edits you made really give it soul. The harmony is very well chosen.


Tomaha wrote:
Lazaroth wrote:Depends if we are talking officially or "unofficially"... ;)


Let's just say which software would you use if you would have unlimited possibilities ;). I benefit from my friends who brought much of the software I'm using from US and UK (as it's unavailable in Poland) and currenty they have no need for it (apart from Ableton Live which was bundled with my guitar DSP as I remember).

And Lazaroth - you've hit the spot with GSnow_B ;). BTW. I always reffered to this track as "Great Snow" - kinda' flimsy but I always liked it that way ;).


ragholio wrote:I use GPO (Garritan Personal Orchestra) which I cant recommend enough. And Miroslav Philharmonik which is kinda thin but has some good wind patches and a sweet piano. I also use Reason 3 for my choir and feed everything into Cubase 4 for the actual programming/sequencing. Dynamics and emotion are controlled with a combination of the modulation and velocity controller lanes.

I'm going to update the work i've done soon (the current ones are just first drafts) and add more.






klasodeth wrote:I hate to be critical, especially since I'm quite impressed with your work so far, but I don't care for the few instances in the song where the flute(?) changes in pitch significantly at the end of a few sections. It somehow reminds me of jungles and native tribes.
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Re: The DaggerXL Music Project (DLs in first post)

Postby Greendogo » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:15 am

Page 4

ragholio wrote:Updated:

Oversnow: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?lmmmhoe233j

EDIT: Bendy flute in Snowing fixed by request.


Lazaroth wrote:
Tomaha wrote:Let's just say which software would you use if you would have unlimited possibilities ;).


I can say what software I mostly use. I got Cubase 5, I do use Papelmedia from time to time (old version got good strings), if I want the instruments to do something special I use the Vienna Symphonic Orchestra and I think the bundled (with Cubase) HalionOne has some great libraries, especially percussion. I use much more depending on what kind of music I'm doing, but this could point you in a direction of what is needed. An adiquit softsynth is also needed, i.e. Halion 3. But as I've already mentioned, don't underestimate the power of a good reverb.


ragholio wrote:I can recommend Altiverb 6 by Audioease for reverb. It's a fantastic convolution reverb wich has many impulses of famous halls, cathedrals and studios. I'd be lost without it.


ragholio wrote:My take on the DaggerXL theme updated: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?jnzemxdnwji

Still working on it though to make it all it can be.


StoneFrog wrote:An interesting take - definitely would feel epic if accompanied by a realtime time lapse of Castle Daggerfall or something of the sort. I disagree on its usage as a theme, however. Post from myself a while back:

StoneFrog wrote:I actually inquired about the Interactive Preview Demo several months earlier on the Bethesda forums.

I love the music on that menu as well. I think it should become the DaggerXL menu theme. It's just so grand - it harkens back to the preview demo of Daggerfall, which alone seemed so much more detailed (and stable) than the final game. It symbolized the greatness of the upcoming game and what it was meant to be. It was a dream of what was to come - a dream deferred, and now said song is simply a distant cry from the past. But no more. The dream is becoming a reality each and every day as dedicated people like Lucius toil away to restore the Iliac Bay to the glorious state that it was meant to be. Someday Bethesda's broken promises shall be forged again and we will be united with the true Daggerfall experience. Perhaps one even greater. :)

Flowy prose aside, I love the tune as well and definitely think it should become the menu tune for DaggerXL. I actually ripped it from the demo (as the demo had each song as a separate file, I believe .XMI, within the \ARENA2\ directory as opposed to existing within one large archive as in the final game), and it's up here on Dropbox for those who wish to have it.


In my opinion, it has a very Shakespearian feel - treachery, betrayal, intrigue, very much representative of the mindset Daggerfall's world was created with. It's nowhere to be found in the final game, but I think it would sound brilliant in DaggerXL. Let me know what you think.


ragholio wrote:This is what I think; I'll give it a go and see if I can modernise it a bit whilst remaining faithfull to the vibe :)


EDIT: It's coming along quite nicely. I think your right, it will make an excellent front end theme :)


Lazaroth wrote:The "theme song" you posted a few posts back needs the following in my opinion:

* The trumpets are waaay to sharp for my ears, soften them up or use another library.
* The harp I think would benefit from better reverb, e.g. as I did with the piano in SNOWING (long reverbation on lower frequencies).
* There seems to be a wierd jump at 44 s.
* The reverbation overall needs a bit more tweaking, the instruments blend a bit poorly.


As to using the other song as theme, I want in on that action. I'm gonna make a take myself, perhaps we in the end can come up with something really good if we have some friendly competition.


ragholio wrote:Firstly: I'm not sure "competition" is the best thing. I think it would be best just to have several versions of the same track so that users can pick 'n' mix wich ones they want according to their own taste. Horses for courses so to speek.

Secondly Lazaroth, your mixes to me sound a bit thin and fuzzy and lacking in sonic fidelity. Don't take that as an attack, i've been engineering and composing for over 10 years as a proffessional so I have a propensity to master "Bright" as you can never be sure as to where your mixes may end up and what 3rd party compression and limiting may be used (tends to be alot in radio). However I do agree that the theme or "17.HMI" as it is listed was probably a poor choice as it's written in a difficult key and doesn't have much substance in the first place (lets face it, some of Heberlings compositions are quite sloppy). I might give up on it now that i've discovered GSTORY. But feel free to do a version if you wish, I'd be keen to hear it :)


klasodeth wrote:I'm all in favor of multiple versions of the tracks, if for no other reason than it makes me feel less guilty for offering criticism. :P

But seriously, being able to choose from multiple versions of the tracks is a rare treat. It's the closest that most of us non-musician types will ever get to being able to create a score for a computer game. I'm truly grateful for your efforts, Lazaroth and ragholio. I had feared that the prospect of a DaggerXL Music Project had vanished along with Robert Hood, so I'm quite thankful to be proven wrong. :D


PatchyPegleg wrote:Indeed, it's nice to see another project prospering for DaggerXL. Great work guys.
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Re: The DaggerXL Music Project (DLs in first post)

Postby Greendogo » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:18 am

Page 5

Lazaroth wrote:
ragholio wrote:your mixes to me sound a bit thin and fuzzy and lacking in sonic fidelity. Don't take that as an attack, i've been engineering and composing for over 10 years as a proffessional so I have a propensity to master "Bright" as you can never be sure as to where your mixes may end up and what 3rd party compression and limiting may be used (tends to be alot in radio).


First of all, I'm not offended and my hope is that you don't get offended by my critisism either. I am not a rookie myself. I get a master in sound engineering in june and I have courses in e.g. musical composition as well as in advanced mixing and recording music for both film and classical music. I also have 6 years of experience of composing similar music, though not professionally (yet, but soon) with all what that involves.

Second, I'm all for learning new things, since I want to get better. Do you have any tips for how to get that sonic fidelity you say I'm lacking?

Third, my understanding (from courses) is that speakers people generally have at home are of bad quality and you can't expect much bass, but frequencies of about 800-1000Hz and upward are mostly represented. Therefore would not a "bright" master seem quite harsh on all those soundsystems, with or without limiting? Or is it rather that you don't have control over the noise level of all things surrounding the speakers and therefore you want a bright mix to "stand out"?

Fourth, could you please elaborate on "thin" and fuzzy. Do you mean bad seperation and too much reverb?

Fifth, I'm in awe for your some of your percussion, especially on the ending on SNOWING, what library do you use?

Sixth, my meaning of competition is more of a motivatior to push boundries, since I'm always trying to get better.

Also, any other tips that experience teaches you rather than school?


ragholio wrote:No offence taken - but i like sharp farty brass :P I listen to alot of Joe Hisaishi and John Adams.

It's hard to write any of this without sounding preachy and i'm sure you know most of this already - so apologies in advance.

Firstly - you must unlearn what you have learned at school. Sure, some of it is useful as a starting point, but every mixing situation is different for every track. No matter how experienced we become, we still make mitakes - thats the only way we learn.

I guess what I mean by thin and fuzzy is that the library you are using sounds outdated (wich is not your fault) and that is most probaly the cause of a lack of sonic fidelity. Also, i feel your mix is too dynamicaly static throughout (theres not enough difference between the soft beginning and the more dramatic ending). Your reverb is fine, although if mixing with library samples like we do, my tip is that it's a good idea not to do any eq'ing or compression on the samples themsevles as that has been done already during the recording process by better engineers than you and I. Also, another tip is to do more extreme panning than 'out of the box' to create more seperation.

As for speakers, you have a point. But it's not much of a problem here as this music is going to played in the background and softly mostly. And it's the mid range frequencies that are going to be perceived as the loudest. Therefore I mix bright so as more detail is perceived at a lower volume (after all - it's all digital right).

CONTEXT: I tend to mix more dynamicly i.e. in SNOWING or BLIZZARD as it was originally known (so theres already the context for me), I wanted the ending to have a more loose and dramatic feel so I added percussion and used the modulation controller lane (wich controls softeness and loudness or expression in Garritan). Velocity does the same thing for percussion. Maybe we should pool our tips 'n' tricks together and sticky them at the top of the post for others :)

LIBRARIES: It's best to use a higher resolution source and then mix down (same principal as digital photography). This ensures more detail in the final product. 24bit 48K is a good mixing resolution for this type of thing. I use Garritan Personal Orchestra 4 - realeased at the beginning of '09 (In my opinion the best you can buy outside of EWQL Gold) for just about everything including my latest album. It includes a few brass samples from the SAM Project. Jeremy Soule and Inon Zur also use these libraries - alot. I also use Miroslav Philharmonik for oboes but it's outdated and most things sound thin. I use and older library for choiral called Symphony of Voices wich contains the London Choir and Classical Soloist - I'll update it once my budget stretches to the EWQL choiral libraries that include an interface whereby you can enter text that the choir can sing. And then there are custom samples that i have recorded over the years.

COMPRESSION/LIMITING: There not the same thing but they are generally used together in the master chain where orchestral music is concerned. The loudest peaks in an energetic track should not be limited more than -3db and compression should be used sparingly. Contrary to popular belief, Bass frequencies are damaged more than high frequencies when overcompression is used (due to the slower movement of lower frequency omni directional oscillations), this leads to a thin sounding washy track. Always set the attack of the compressor to be a bit slower so as to let the natuaral transients through and not damage them (the transients will be caught by the limiter). And remember that that too much compression kills dynamics. I use Waves L3 for limiting and PSP Vintage Warmer for compression. The limter should be the last device in the chain with the output set to -0.2 db as per audio cd standard.

REVERB: A good convolution reverb with high quality stereo impulses is a must for orchestral music. It recreates true recording spaces and ambiences. If your library included an ambience or reverb setting built in - turn it off - as it eill interfere with the convolution reverb and cause phasing. I used to use Waves IR1, now i use Audioese Altiverb 6.

THE MOST IMPORTANT THING: Mix with your EARS not your EYES. It's still a mistake i make from time to time. And NEVER MIX WITH HEADPHONES, always use MONITORS. And lastly but no leastly, make sure your mixing environment is FLAT; in this case, using computer, make sure eq's or stereo effects such as EAX are NOT active.

I could go on but i'd bore everyone to death. Plus, i'm on holiday at the moment so i should do a few more tracks before i no longer have the time.


Lazaroth wrote:Thank you for your answers! I must say that much of what you wrote I knew, but it is always good to learn some new things and reaffirm that what I already thought is true. I think I will buy that Garritan library and see for myself if it is as good as you claim.

However:
ragholio wrote:but i like sharp farty brass :P


As we say in Sweden; The taste is like your ass, split. ;)

Maybe one day I will get around writing a tutorial based on what you have written as well as things I know myself both from school and by experience. Right now I want to play with the libraries however. I have a lot of other things going on right now so nothing new will come from me until earliest this weekend. Also, I'm a gamer at heart and STALKER just came out!


luciusDXL wrote:Can you guys give me a general description of the project to put in the subforum description? Something short but informative.


Lazaroth wrote:Hmm, I dunno... Perhaps something like: "Have you ever walked the streets of Daggerfall wondering what it would sound like if the game had been made today? The goal of this project is to answer that question and eventually remaster all music to the standards of that of a modern game."


luciusDXL wrote:
Lazaroth wrote:Hmm, I dunno... Perhaps something like: "Have you ever walked the streets of Daggerfall wondering what it would sound like if the game had been made today? The goal of this project is to answer that question and eventually remaster all music to the standards of that of a modern game."

Ok, done. :)


Lunarpumpkin wrote:lol
I like that description.


bloodshot wrote:I really like GSNOW_B. Although the midi will always be my favorite due to my nostalgia, these seem like they would fit a new game perfectly, nice work.


Lazaroth wrote:Just letting you know that I've done an interpretation of GSTORY. Found as always in the first post. I will probably tweak the instrument-seperation a bit more when my ears are rested.


StoneFrog wrote:Mind has blown - as always, I praise you for your ability to remain faithful to the original score whilst tweaking the instruments and progressions as you see fit to do away with the predictable "stick to the rhythm" syndrome that many MIDIs suffer from. The introduction you've added is quite nice, and you've definitely prioritized the instruments in a much nicer fashion than the original did. This definitely, definitely has to be on the DaggerXL menu someday. :)
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Re: The DaggerXL Music Project (DLs in first post)

Postby Greendogo » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:21 am

Page 6

bloodshot wrote:Holy sh... I just listened to ragholio's version of snowing, and the pickup at 0:55 almost made me fall out of my seat. It was a surprisingly epic take on the original.

I like the remakes you guys are doing alot, i hope once DaggerXL is done (or next release/demo maybe?) we can see some of these ingame.


Rhymer wrote:
Lazaroth wrote:Just letting you know that I've done an interpretation of GSTORY. Found as always in the first post. I will probably tweak the instrument-seperation a bit more when my ears are rested.


Is there any chance to have a looped version? I would like to test it with my video start menu...


Lazaroth wrote:Well, it does loop in the sense that it starts and ends in silence. A remake can't loop exactly as a midi because of reverbation-time and due to the fact that a clean cut when there is sound produces noise and sounds wierd. Since it does start and end roughly the same it would however be possible to cross-fade manually if you want it to loop 'better' in a video. If you write your thoughts and times, maybe I can produce something which loops 'better'.


klasodeth wrote:
Lazaroth wrote:Well, it does loop in the sense that it starts and ends in silence. A remake can't loop exactly as a midi because of reverbation-time and due to the fact that a clean cut when there is sound produces noise and sounds wierd. Since it does start and end roughly the same it would however be possible to cross-fade manually if you want it to loop 'better' in a video. If you write your thoughts and times, maybe I can produce something which loops 'better'.

Perhaps it might not be a bad idea to compose lead-in pieces, and optionally lead-outs. Lead-outs probably wouldn't be of much use since the music will usually need to change mid-track, but having a lead-in play right before the looping section begins shouldn't be all that hard for lucius to support.


Lazaroth wrote:If I understand you correctly, you mean I should compose 3 parts:
1. Lead-in/intro
2. Music which can be looped endlessly
3. Lead-out/outro

It can be done, however it will require more work then you might expect to blend seemlessly. A cross-fade between parts would in that case be easier. Otherwise both the end of the intro and the end of the middle-part would have to end exactly the same (which is doable), otherwise the beginning of the middle-part will sound strange (due to reverb from the earlier part).

That being said, it would be cool if a cross-fade was implemented in the DaggerXL engine and me as a composer could specify break-points (where a cross-fade can be made to sound good). This to get good sounding music changes, instead of a hard break as in the original game.

Another idea: what if when you e.g. is getting closer to a tavern (perhaps 5-10 ingame meters) can hear the tavern-music muffled as if the music is coming from inside. Also an engine-related issue though... :)


klasodeth wrote:
Lazaroth wrote:If I understand you correctly, you mean I should compose 3 parts:
1. Lead-in/intro
2. Music which can be looped endlessly
3. Lead-out/outro

That is correct, with the third part being optional, since player actions would normally cause music tracks to terminate somewhere other than at the end of the track.

It can be done, however it will require more work then you might expect to blend seemlessly. A cross-fade between parts would in that case be easier. Otherwise both the end of the intro and the end of the middle-part would have to end exactly the same (which is doable), otherwise the beginning of the middle-part will sound strange (due to reverb from the earlier part).

I'm no musician so maybe I'm missing something here, but wouldn't it be possible to take the original midi, duplicate it so that the track repeats three times (creating a triple-length midi), and then just crop the middle segment from the final recording? That way the tail end of the first section is naturally incorporated into the middle section, and the middle section has a theoretically identical transition to the third section. There may be something I'm missing since I know nothing about music, but I've done something somewhat similar to create burst-fire sound effects so that fully-automatic gunfire would loop gracefully without having to mix sounds together in real time.

That being said, it would be cool if a cross-fade was implemented in the DaggerXL engine and me as a composer could specify break-points (where a cross-fade can be made to sound good). This to get good sounding music changes, instead of a hard break as in the original game.

If it makes the game sound better, I'm all for it, especially if it's something that wouldn't be difficult for lucius to implement.

Another idea: what if when you e.g. is getting closer to a tavern (perhaps 5-10 ingame meters) can hear the tavern-music muffled as if the music is coming from inside. Also an engine-related issue though... :)

I think that's an excellent idea! It would be nice to have something similar happen with street performers as well.


Lazaroth wrote:
klasodeth wrote:I'm no musician so maybe I'm missing something here, but wouldn't it be possible to take the original midi, duplicate it so that the track repeats three times (creating a triple-length midi), and then just crop the middle segment from the final recording? That way the tail end of the first section is naturally incorporated into the middle section, and the middle section has a theoretically identical transition to the third section.


We still have the issue that the end of the intro and the end of the mid-segment must sound similar. But as I said, it is doable, although might be hard since the mid-part also must fit with the outro. You must consider tempo, which instruments are used and so forth too. That is nothing you have to worry about when looping gunfire.

I can however do a test-version later this week whilst I'm updating the other things I think need fixing.


Gez wrote:
Lazaroth wrote:That being said, it would be cool if a cross-fade was implemented in the DaggerXL engine and me as a composer could specify break-points (where a cross-fade can be made to sound good). This to get good sounding music changes, instead of a hard break as in the original game.


I think something like this is needed in DarkXL to properly emulate Lucas Arts' iMuse system, so if it's implemented there, there would be no reason not to implement it here.


StoneFrog wrote:
Gez wrote:I think something like this is needed in DarkXL to properly emulate Lucas Arts' iMuse system, so if it's implemented there, there would be no reason not to implement it here.

Oh man, iMUSE. Loved that, especially in Monkey Island 2. Granted, LucasArts mostly used it for crossfading variants of tracks that had similar rhythms (the town of Woodtick comes to mind, where every location had its own special version of the main, consistent town theme, the inclusion of additional instruments, etc), but I'm sure with carefully placed transition points, we could still get something that sounds much nicer than the current total dead-stop of the music tracks.

To anyone not getting the idea, consult this Wikipedia article. Original patent here for technical stuff.


Rhymer wrote:Could anyone record a tune which sounds in the Daggerfall intro movie when the book pages are flipping (from the 14th second)? I would be really grateful for help!
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Re: The DaggerXL Music Project (DLs in first post)

Postby Greendogo » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:23 am

Page 7

Lazaroth wrote:
Rhymer wrote:Could anyone record a tune which sounds in the Daggerfall intro movie when the book pages are flipping (from the 14th second)? I would be really grateful for help!


If noone beats me to it, I can do a take on the original music tomorrow.


Rhymer wrote:Thank you for your try!


ragholio wrote:Heres my version of GSTORY. James Horner style. It also loops. Enjoy :)

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?2jmyj2qnbet


PatchyPegleg wrote:Ragholio I really dig the new song man, it loops pretty well, I've already listened to it twice I like it. I think the solo male singing towards the end of the climax was pretty good, I'm not sure what that orcarina noise at the end was though, it sounded kinda fake to me but still went with the song real well.

Overall great, goodjob. :)


ragholio wrote:Cheers. It's probably just some frequencies clashing. I'll bear this in mind when doing my final mix. If anything it's the male voice that sounds fake, i'll mess around with the ADSR. And there are a few percussion indescrepencies which i also need to work on. Other wise i'm pretty happy with it, even the farty bass trombone rips :)


Lazaroth wrote:Updated GSTORY, probably one more edit before I'm satisfied. Intro movie music coming later today.

I really liked your take ragholio. Two comments though:

1. A thought: Do you like the accelerando as it is now, stretched out, as opposed to a faster one at perhaps let say around 49 s?
2. A question: I like your song library, may I ask which one you use?

(Also, perhaps male singer could be a little stronger at the end. :oops: )


ragholio wrote:The accelerando is a bit laboured at the moment. Easy to fix. Do you you suggest keeping up to 49s slow and then jumping to a faster bpm when the first chorus comes in?

Not sure what you mean by song library but if you mean where am i getting my midi's from? I'm using the Daggerfall Juke Box wich has all of the different versions of Heberlings compositions, FM, GS (ROLAND), GM etc. that have varying levels of detail.

I'll pull the male vocalist up at the end if i can find a more natural sounding attack.

I like your new version. Though i'd like to hear those strings in the last section up in the mix. Also maybe pull back the choir a bit as it's drowning the articulation of the other instruments ;)

EDIT: Nevermind, I put in a non linear tempo curve so it sounds far more natural. You can slap this one http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?4yynrmnummj on page one until i finish mixing it in about a week or so (now my choir is too loud hehe curse my tired ears) :)


Lazaroth wrote:
ragholio wrote:Do you you suggest keeping up to 49s slow and then jumping to a faster bpm when the first chorus comes in?

Not sure what you mean by song library but if you mean where am i getting my midi's from?


For nr 1, I meant as you said, slow first and then a jump at 49 s. Thinking about doing something similar myself. Although, I have a few more radical things to look forward to in the next revision.

As for nr 2, I meant the vocal sound-library. I like the voices.


otsego wrote:Whoa, now we're really cookin!

ragholio - I really, really like your take on GSTORY. I like it when you fellas take a different approach to these songs... add your own touches. BUT! There is one problem I can think of (and this applied to my favorite Robert Hood recreation, in which he was liberal with his own ideas and added them to the song).

That problem is, I'm not sure it would fit in a gameplay setting, walking around town in the morning and hearing those voices. They're WONDERFUL, but where the song is so short, it would loop quickly and the highlight of the piece would be played often. It might even get annoying. The tempo isn't as quick either which changes the mood of the song a bit from the original.

But that's just my opinion, others might think that it would work perfectly. My suggestion for solving this, if necessary at all, would be to expand on the piece and increase it's length a bit, or remove the voices at either end of the song.

Lazaroth - Your updated version of GSTORY is a nice improvement. This one I could definitely hear as I wandered around town. Again, the voices I like a lot, and seem more ambient/subtle, so I think they fit great in a looped piece. It made me very excited to finally be running around in the world when this project is at a playable stage, with the enhanced textures and music :)

Question for both of you... why did you tone down the percussion in your recreations?


Lazaroth wrote:
otsego wrote:I like it when you fellas take a different approach to these songs


Me too. I like hearing different versions and getting ideas and so forth.

otsego wrote:walking around town in the morning and hearing those voices.


Well, I think this last song was considered for menu-music.

otsego wrote:why did you tone down the percussion in your recreations?


It's a matter of taste and what you feel works for the song. Both me and ragholio have more percussion than the original midi and as for toned down, well I guess that's a matter of opinion I suppose.
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Re: The DaggerXL Music Project (DLs in first post)

Postby Greendogo » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:31 am

Page 8

Lazaroth wrote:Added the Daggerfall movie intro music to the first post. I hope it sounds ok tomorrow too, both me and my ears are tired! Signing off for today!

Also, getting control of the bass was a bitch, had to side-chain, EQ, gate, compress and your mothers glasses. Be kind.. ;)


Rhymer wrote:Thank you for your music! Though in original it sounded a bit more epic and gloomier... It was a dark song for describing the dark times. It should sound a bit more dreary and pathetic...


PatchyPegleg wrote:Why did you both do GSTORY and SNOWING :?:


Tsetra wrote:Why not have two differing soundtracks? I like both of your guys' work, both are very distinct and sound like they belong in a set. Lazaroth, your music sounds very fantasy-like with more of a mellowed tone, and Ragholio, your work is powerful and reminds me of a classic orchestra. Very good job, both of you!


PatchyPegleg wrote:I have no objections, I was just curious I suppose.


ragholio wrote:
otsego wrote:Whoa, now we're really cookin!

That problem is, I'm not sure it would fit in a gameplay setting, walking around town in the morning and hearing those voices. They're WONDERFUL, but where the song is so short, it would loop quickly and the highlight of the piece would be played often. It might even get annoying. The tempo isn't as quick either which changes the mood of the song a bit from the original.

Question for both of you... why did you tone down the percussion in your recreations?



This track will be used over the menu and not during gameplay.

And i wasn't aware that we toned the percussion down. I like to think we augmented and beefed it up.

And Lazaroth; I use a library called Symphony of Voices http://www.spectrasonics.net/libraries/ ... voices.php for REASON But i'd recommend getting EWQL instead.


otsego wrote:Menu, really? Huh. I could've sworn I've heard that as one of the mid-morning tracks. That changes things :P

I guess it's just my ears. The percussion seems really loud and prominent in the MIDI track, but is covered up and takes a back seat in the recreations.


ragholio wrote:I guess its just the perception of dynamics in the low bandwidth of midi sound fonts, lack of reverb and the limited mixing capabilities at the time. Now that we have high fidelity libraries, we have far more bandwidth in order to create a realistic sonique landscapes, thus the percussion would naturally be percieved as farther back as it is now possible to create depth in our mixes with realistic impulse reverbs.

Anyways, I tried what Lazaroth proposed (tempo wise)...and it didn't work :(

But i'm VERY happy with this mix now that i've sidechained some of the low/low mid frequencies, messed around with my compressors and let the upper end breath.

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?km5jgbzmnjj


Lazaroth wrote:
Rhymer wrote:Though in original it sounded a bit more epic and gloomier...


If I remove the flute and the solo violin you pretty much get the original song. Can do that and see if you like that better.

Tsetra wrote:Why not have two differing soundtracks?


I thought of an idea a couple of days ago. What if we, when we have multiple songs, use all of them together and randomly play both in game.

ragholio wrote:Anyways, I tried what Lazaroth proposed (tempo wise)...and it didn't work :(


Too bad, it was just an idea I got. Havn't listened to it myself yet. Though, I'm still gonna mess around with it a bit... ;)


Also ragholio, do you think the silver-version is "good enough" or should I focus on the gold / platinum versions of EWQL? Can't afford the gold / platinum versions atm.

EDIT: Added a new version of the Daggerfall intro movie music.

EDIT 2: New idea: When there are multiple versions of a song, why not have the songs play in different regions of the game. E.g. if there is one fast and one slow version of a song, perhaps the more "busy" regions have the fast version and the others get the slower song. Alternatively, perhaps coordinate the efforts more and come up with more desert/mountain/etc type versions.


ragholio wrote:I think it's a great idea Lazaroth. But I also think that for now, whilst you and I have the momentum going we should focus on completing the original Daggerfall songbook first (although i'm not really a dungeon, ambient type so i'll focus more on the overland/domestic tracks). Then we'll be free to experiment.

I'd wait, save up and get this when you can afford it http://www.eastwestsamples.com/details. ... index=1128
It contains everything a digi composer needs. I'll be shelling out for it soon, hopefully whilst it's still 50% off :)

I think that with Silver, youd still be using alot of your other libraries. It would be better to get this http://www.garritan.com/products_gpo4.html. Much more inclusive than EQWL Silver and cheaper. I'm loving it.

I'd also like to see lucius maybe incorporate a mixer with crossfading into the engine so that our mp3's will loop nicely without us having to abruptly cuttoff reverb tails in our mixes. And with some extra code could link into the region database to control wich random tracks are played where.

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