The DaggerXL Texture Project (NPC Portraits)

User avatar
Brendan_
Senior-Member
Posts: 388
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:08 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The DaggerXL Texture Project (NPC Portraits)

Postby Brendan_ » Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:39 pm

Ooooooh yeah! This approaching is working already! :mrgreen:

I think we're all fine with the cartoonish style. Everything in Daggerfall was cartoon/drawn, other than things related to combat-- enemies, weapons, your brown-gloved fists and boots.
Lutojar's work too would not be mistaken for computer rendering, so this all works. Looking side-by-side at madwort's and lutojar's works, I will say that luto's has a crisper quality with fine details while wort's has a less desirable fuzzy/blurry look, but they embrace the same facial proportioning and overall style. They work together, and practice will answer my technical critique of madwort's work -- which I'm very excited to see!

It could also enable an enhanced character portrait system, giving the player for freedom to define their avatar than the current swap-a-head system allows. So this could be very useful, thanks to meister madwort!
Janus
Member
Posts: 95
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:06 am

Re: The DaggerXL Texture Project (NPC Portraits)

Postby Janus » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:57 pm

madwort wrote:I did a small experiment with the paper doll face for the commoners. Here are a few variations:
Image

Right now there are 4 different jaws and 7 different mouths, noses, brows, hair and facial hair, 5 pairs of eyes. You can just build the face and I guess there are a lot of possible outcomes. The hair and skin color are easy to change. I tried to use the original shapes and styles which is why they look quite cartoonish (I like the original Daggerfall style). Adding a hood and the shirt wouldn't be a big job either. Obviously for the finished portraits I'd also fix the color of the eyes and perhaps give the lips some color. Drawing the hairy parts takes a little while but otherwise these are very quick to do.

Outstanding!!! Keep up the great work!
User avatar
emmathepony
Junior-Member
Posts: 37
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:12 pm
Location: uk

Re: The DaggerXL Texture Project (NPC Portraits)

Postby emmathepony » Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:54 am

those face portraits are incredible :shock:
madwort
Lurker
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:50 pm

Re: The DaggerXL Texture Project (NPC Portraits)

Postby madwort » Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:23 pm

Thanks guys! And -- Brendan you're right. They do look quite fuzzy/blurry. Kinda bland too. I tried to give them more contrast. At least I like these better:

Image
(I forgot the neck & shoulders, whoops)

The texture might be too much. I'll just have to look at them tomorrow, a little break always helps me to notice things. I'll also have to see what I can do with the hairstyles and facial hair especially, to make them stand out less. Annd when these look ok I could maaaybe start the mass production. ;)
User avatar
greenlight
Senior-Member
Posts: 526
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2011 12:35 pm
Location: Duisburg, Germany

Re: The DaggerXL Texture Project (NPC Portraits)

Postby greenlight » Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:13 pm

These look even better! I think the "bland" look will fade when cloth (hoods, shirts) and maybe different skin/hair colors are added.
I think a modular system where face, eyes, hair and beard/facial hair can be selected individually would give the player more freedom in the creation of a character, which is as far as I know the general aim of DaggerXL.

Maybe by this even different emotions/moods can be captured. If there is an angry, normal and happy version of all of the relevant parts (face and beard, mostly), the game could then choose to use them based on ingame-happenings. I know this would mean a lot of work but on the other hand it could give NPC's a lot more character.
In Soviet Russia books burn nazis...
User avatar
Brendan_
Senior-Member
Posts: 388
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:08 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The DaggerXL Texture Project (NPC Portraits)

Postby Brendan_ » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:04 pm

greenlight wrote:Maybe by this even different emotions/moods can be captured. If there is an angry, normal and happy version of all of the relevant parts (face and beard, mostly), the game could then choose to use them based on ingame-happenings. I know this would mean a lot of work but on the other hand it could give NPC's a lot more character.

I'm always a fan of richer social/interpersonal dynamics in games. Diplomacy, influence, and manipulation which rule the real world are often ignored for repetitive violence in RPGs, a genre that would strive to support creative problem solving.

Implementing it is trouble.

I'm sure you see that adding some number of emotional states, E, has to be multiplied across the number of facial components, F, yielding an EFing lot more work by human artists drawing them.
And that's saying nothing for the design and AI programming needed to define and control emotions.

Programming is the art of constructive laziness. The "slider-rama" 3D face morphing systems we've seen in many RPGs of the last decade, as well as Oblivion's use of the same underlying technology for emotions and speech, is a case of programming enabling an imperfect solution to what would be an interminable manual task. It gets the computer to provide many different versions from one iteration of human labor-- one requiring more work than would otherwise be required per head, but it pays off.

Emotions (or some gameplay based on the concept) might be too much trouble to implement. Or they might be simple to tack onto the Reputation system and basic AI. I have no idea.
Regardless, if anyone knows someone able to code 2D morphing, it could be a great asset to this "NPC to the face!" effort with or without emotions.

Conversely, unless someone knows such a programmer, I think it would be counterproductive to let this emotion-versioning idea gain traction.
Making different face parts for different face blanks is already a lot of human labor considering DF's population is meant to be realistically numerous and diverse.
Trading some diversity for an emotional response from NPCs appeals to me, but I think we'd be far better off with 6 different eyes drawn up than 2, tripling the risk of players noting repetition, to support even as few as three emotive states to be controlled by an Emotion AI we don't even have.

Without programmers willing to construct Emotion AI, emotion-versions would be no more useful than simply more versions. And even with AI programmers, it would really be a huge asset to have 2D facial morphing or some programmatic assistance to making more versions.
Aliotroph?
Senior-Member
Posts: 293
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 8:49 pm

Re: The DaggerXL Texture Project (NPC Portraits)

Postby Aliotroph? » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:46 pm

These new portraits are cool. I just had a thought, though: Daggerfall uses non-square pixels when rendering everything to the screen so in game the last set of portraits will look as follows:

Image

I'm not sure if that will affect the art involved since all these images are modelled after the ones in the game, which receive the same stretch when rendered.
User avatar
Klasodeth
Site Staff
Site Staff
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: The DaggerXL Texture Project (NPC Portraits)

Postby Klasodeth » Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:11 pm

Aliotroph? wrote:These new portraits are cool. I just had a thought, though: Daggerfall uses non-square pixels when rendering everything to the screen so in game the last set of portraits will look as follows:

http://i.pgu.me/MKb6h5t4_original.jpg

I'm not sure if that will affect the art involved since all these images are modelled after the ones in the game, which receive the same stretch when rendered.

Any artist working with square pixels will need to pre-stretch their final art assets, so that when the art is displayed in Daggerfall, the image returns to its original aspect ratio. That's pretty easy to do though, so it shouldn't be a problem when it comes time to start bringing them into the game.
I'm frequently online in the #xlengine.projects channel at irc.freenode.net as Klasodeth, Klaso, or KLA.
User avatar
Phobos Anomaly
Senior-Member
Posts: 234
Joined: Sun Mar 24, 2013 10:56 pm

Re: The DaggerXL Texture Project (NPC Portraits)

Postby Phobos Anomaly » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:43 pm

These portraits are great! a very nice job indeed madwort.
User avatar
Brendan_
Senior-Member
Posts: 388
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:08 am
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The DaggerXL Texture Project (NPC Portraits)

Postby Brendan_ » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:03 pm

Klasodeth wrote:
Aliotroph? wrote:These new portraits are cool. I just had a thought, though: Daggerfall uses non-square pixels when rendering everything to the screen...

I'm not sure if that will affect the art involved since all these images are modelled after the ones in the game, which receive the same stretch when rendered.

Any artist working with square pixels will need to pre-stretch their final art assets, so that when the art is displayed in Daggerfall, the image returns to its original aspect ratio.


"Non-square pixels" is something I hadn't heard of before. For others in the same boat with me:
the lurker's guide to video wrote:A 100 pixel vertical line may be longer or shorter than a 100 pixel horizontal line on a video monitor, depending on the video system.

It sounds like a bad thing, even supposing we've been seeing Daggerfall non-square all these years (I don't know if that's so).

If this is something standard-definition original Daggerfall had, can't high-definition DaggerXL use properly square pixels?
Or were Daggerfall's mighty mighty pixels square and there's some reason Lucius has to unsquare them? I doubt it, but I'm not sure what the situation is.

Since this will affect each and every portrait, it does need to be nailed down so every artist knows how and if they need to compensate. Since the artwork is being done on (I assume) square-pixel displays of the image editor of their choice, it seems much much better if DaggerXL could also use square-pixels.

Return to “Texture Project”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests